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Thread: SP Proposal

  1. #1
    FOBL Owner/GM Doc P's Avatar
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    Default SP Proposal

    I don't know if there are enough guys around who still care about this stuff, but....

    We all know that a glitchy loophole has been discovered in recent versions of ootp.
    The one where you can have your super RP pitch close to 200 innings and put up 30+ wins.

    This has allowed owners to take advantage of the ratings boost and reduced fatigue that are associated with RP's (not to mention salary disparity) as opposed to SP's in ootp.
    It has also prompted owners to technically trot out 5 SP's, but pull them after 40 to 50 pitches, which makes these basically RP's who are called SP's because they pitched first in the game. This is legal under our current constitution.

    I believe this undermines the league in various ways - in competitive spirit, finances, realism (there has to be some of that, right?), history, etc.
    (It reminds me of the old "bunt for hit" trick in Microleague Baseball, where you could easily have a guy hit in the mid .300's by having him bunt for a single every time up).

    It would be nice to be excited about Tom Maske's 19-8 season that he's having, but it just gets laughed off the stat page when you look at what the sooper RP's are doing.


    My proposal is to require a more realistic minimum pitch count (for those using a pitch count) for all SP's at the ML level. I think it should be set at 85, but still allow the manager to pull the trigger as quick as you want.


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  2. #2
    FOBL Owner/GM frozenrope's Avatar
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    Yes, I would be for this.

  3. #3
    FOBL Board of Governors Hollywood's Avatar
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    Agreed, and for administration's sake, I would make it as easy to check as possible. That means 5-man rotations with no pitch count number other than zero. If you want them pulled fast, use hook settings.

  4. #4
    FOFL Commissioner cuervo72's Avatar
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    Glad to see a couple of responses -- I didn't want to be the first to chime in.

    I won't campaign too hard either way, I don't think. But a couple of comments:

    1. Yeah, the wins stats are bad visuals. But I'd argue that wins for pitchers are a crap stat. (So are saves; part of my enjoyment out of this is bucking the whole SAVES ARE KING [in RonCoLand] for RP mentality.)

    2. "History" is funny, if you consider that we are simming in the year 2061.

    3. It's also a bit funny that Doc - who wins what, a title every three of his seasons? - is looking to address someone's competitive advantage. Funnier in that the strategy has been pretty darned ineffective where titles are concerned (we've one one in the Crater era, and that was with two bona fide starters in Lonnie Aldis and Tristan Poole (2.5 if you count Don Stark, who had 136IP that season).

    4. Doc, if you keep this up imma start calling you guys the Red Gripe.


    Anyway, I welcome discussion here. I miss this sort of thing, both on the forum and in the lounge. I'm up for a good philosophical discourse. I think the financial ramifications of the strategy are pretty minimal; so you have a few RP who are priced more than they otherwise could be. I see no harm in that. I don't think it depresses SP prices, as you still have the bulk of the teams running traditional staffs.

    I also think it's pretty easy to combat, and not necessarily easy to maintain. I've been able to, but I'm not sure how long that will last. It only has because I've sold some picks (we still aren't in a great financial place), traded for the occasional arm (gave up a 1 for Shamar Sawyer, remember), and spent a number of high picks on these types of guys. Some have panned out - Sutton (1st), Gonzalez (1st), Gafkjen (2nd). Others have been "eh" - Holsten (2nd), Crace (2nd), Darity (1st), Pyles (1st). But I wouldn't have the arms for this were I not consistently picking them. And even then, that's no guarantee I can hold onto them -- Sutton has been bid away twice.

    Also, you really need seven strong RP to really pull this off. If you don't, you have leaks because these guys still really only pitch every other game (though "leverage" makes this a touch easier, I think, because you can eat some innings while still hiding a guy or two). I feel like I already have some holes on the back-end of the staff that are being covered over by good defense. Holsten and Minnihan are really not very good. Crace is ok, but not spectacular. One key injury would REALLY foul things up.

    But the way to combat this? Bid on these guys. Vlad and Sawyer are in FA this year. Gafkjen and Gonzalez will be in the same FA class. Apply a little pressure and the strategy becomes much harder.


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  5. #5
    FOBL Owner/GM Doc P's Avatar
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    I think wins and saves still have meaning. It's what win awards for players and gets them into the hall of fame (which hopefully we'll vote on next season).

    Despite what the saber-nerds say, most voters still don't give a lot of points to war and whip and babip and vorp and.....


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  6. #6
    FOFL Commissioner cuervo72's Avatar
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    Duke does!

    (well...if Duke is actually still here)

    The in-game awards determination is flawed, I'll give you that.


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  7. #7
    FOBL Owner/GM tramel321's Avatar
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    I like the sooper closer an i have never used the tactic,it gives eeveryone another option to compete an its not like cuervo( the originator) is winning titles every year...long live the sooper closer!!!

  8. #8
    FOBL Owner/GM jimedrice's Avatar
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    i think the problem isn't so bad in FOBL as it would be in a normal OOTP league, where OOTP handles the finances. The difference between salaries for SPs and MRs is substantial -- which is why FOBL has all those fucky-fuck rules regarding SP classification. So you are really gaming the financial system with the sooper pen. I'm not sure how re-signing figures are calculated in FOBL but is it also affecting those values?

  9. #9
    FOFL Commissioner cuervo72's Avatar
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    It can be debated if it is gaming the system or if it is finding market inefficiencies. I mean, ok - I'm not convinced that Markus thought of this in putting together his pitching model (I would also argue that his assigning of importance to a start in determining what a pitcher's stuff actually is is...well, I think the approach is a little suspect). But we can compensate for that. Doesn't mean we will -- owners have been succeeding by finding underpriced guys for ages. Capitalizing on the league undervaluing OBP, or speed, or defense, or movement, etc. But our free agency is such that we can correct for that. Think a guy is underpriced? Bid him up.

    As for retaining guys, discounts are just a percentage of the final winning bid. Doesn't matter what the player's position is (just hometown, loyalty and in the case of legacy, tenure).


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  10. #10
    FOBL Owner/GM frozenrope's Avatar
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    To me, it's aesthetics more than anything. It just looks weird for a guy to have 40 wins in a season where he only pitched 120. It doesn't feel like a 'great season' that future generations can aspire to. It's a 'the game is broken now fix it' statistic, much like Barry Bonds' 250 walks that one year where he was so juiced up he couldn't turn his head. I felt that way in Donny Room's 70 homer and 100 stolen base season and a lot of those 2001-2002, 2004 statistics where the ballpark effects were f'ed up.

    I don't doubt that it's a good strategy to have, but something about it just feels wrong.


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  11. #11
    FOBL Owner/GM Buddy Grant's Avatar
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    Its been years since I looked at OOTP settings, but are there any game settings that might decrease tired pitcher effectiveness, or increase the injury risk for tired pitchers? I kinda doubt it, which of course makes me love this game even more.

  12. #12
    FOFL Commissioner cuervo72's Avatar
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    There's a Pitcher Stamina setting and a RP Stamina setting, but I don't know how well they work (or for the latter, how it works at all).

    http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...eem-right.html


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  13. #13
    FOBL Owner/GM Buddy Grant's Avatar
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    Before we ban one of the few working OOTP team strategy settings (not allowing pitch counts) I'd rather we tried one or both of these available options...
    1. Reduce the general strategic tendency "Pitcher Stamina" from 'normal' (or whatever we use) to... um 'weak' or whatever next lower setting is available.
    2. Reduce league totals "Relief Pitcher Stamina" setting from whatever we use (default is maybe .800?) to a lower number.

  14. #14
    FOBL Board of Governors Draft Dodger's Avatar
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    yeah, I'm not 100% convinced that the super pen strategy wouldn't work in real life so I don't think we should ban it because it's not real baseball. And I don't think salary disparity is valid either because these salaries are all being decided on the free market. If it's exploiting a fatigue loophole, well that's something a bit different. I'm much more in favor of Buddy's option 2

  15. #15
    FOFL Commissioner cuervo72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy Grant View Post
    Before we ban one of the few working OOTP team strategy settings (not allowing pitch counts) I'd rather we tried one or both of these available options...
    1. Reduce the general strategic tendency "Pitcher Stamina" from 'normal' (or whatever we use) to... um 'weak' or whatever next lower setting is available.
    2. Reduce league totals "Relief Pitcher Stamina" setting from whatever we use (default is maybe .800?) to a lower number.
    Right now we are at "Low" for Pitcher Stamina and 1.000 for RP (and SP) stamina.

    RP stamina may not actually do anything though: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...justments.html


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  16. #16
    FOBL Owner/GM Doc P's Avatar
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    I don't mind the sooper pen strategy as a concept.
    It does screw with market value somewhat. SP's are devalued slightly and RP's are overvalued slightly. Pretty sure that's a fact.


    But setting up a rotation of 5 guys with 40-pitch limits IS gaming the system, no matter how you spin it.


    Draft RP's, buy RP's, skimp on SP's... whatever.
    But run out a legit rotation and let the manager decide when to pull them. That's how the game is played.


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  17. #17
    FOFL Commissioner cuervo72's Avatar
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    So it's valid, I just have to wait until they get beat around a little bit before they're pulled?

    I mean, I would tell the manager to limit them to 3IP, but I can't do that. I'm limited to pitch counts as an approximation; 40 seems to be a pretty good one for 3IP, fwiw.

    GAME LOG, LAST 10 GAMES
    Date Vs. Result Start IP H R ER BB K Dec
    09/20/2061 @ NRW Loss, 6-7 X 1.1 4 1 1 1 0
    09/15/2061 OTT Win, 3-1 X 3.0 2 0 0 0 0
    09/10/2061 @ TRI Win, 8-6 X 0.2 5 3 3 0 1
    09/04/2061 DUR Win, 13-0 X 2.1 1 0 0 1 3
    08/29/2061 @ WIC Loss, 7-9 X 2.1 3 3 3 2 0 Loss
    08/24/2061 @ KEN Win, 9-2 X 1.1 3 1 1 3 3
    08/19/2061 SAC Loss, 0-9 X 3.0 3 3 2 1 1 Loss
    08/14/2061 AYR Loss, 4-6 X 3.1 4 1 1 0 3
    08/09/2061 @ VIR Win, 8-1 X 3.0 2 0 0 1 1
    08/04/2061 HOL Loss, 3-10 X 0.0 4 6 6 2 0 Loss

    That's Don Stark's game log. Is there anything too egregious? He pitches well, he goes for 3 IP and hands it to the pen. He doesn't, he gets yanked. Maybe some of the 1.1 IP/1 ER outings he could have stuck around...and given up a couple more runs.

    I still don't see the $$ argument. Again, there are very few teams doing this. And, relatively few of these sooper guys. Stark is actually serviceable at 6/8/7 I'd say. He went for 110k -- with me bidding on him. And I say so what to Sutton making 6M, or R.J. Marks (who I didn't even bid on) making 3.68. I'm not going to cry that someone else's RP is more expensive than he'd like.

    -----


    It's funny, I think part of this is how Markus re-implemented stamina. Pretty sure that without an 8 stamina, it would be hard for Gafkjen to pitch 200IP in relief. Now, if pitchers had separate durations for starting and relieving and the game applied those differently...


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  18. #18
    Owner and GM, Washington Piledrivers and Virginia Woodchucks Subby's Avatar
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    I'm good either way, but I do see us as just being ahead of the curve of how pitchers *should* be used in baseball.
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  19. #19
    FOBL Owner/GM Doc P's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure if everybody was forced to field 5 legit SP's, we'd be seeing a lot more of them going for $8-12 million.

    And yes, when you have an SP who NEVER pitches past 3 IP, that IS egregious. If he's pitching well, why not let him go til the 5th or 6th? I see no valid argument for this, sorry.


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  20. #20
    FOFL Commissioner cuervo72's Avatar
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    In real-life theory, yes - if a guy is in the groove with good stuff, riide him. This is the FAC though. Guy can roll along for five innings then get lit up in the 6th. The die rolls don't know what's come before, unless I'm underestimating Markus.

    As for 8-12M, I don't think I've ever paid that much for a starting pitcher. (Curious about this now -- trying to see what the max is that I have paid, and for who. Dorsey Futrell, maybe.)


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  21. #21
    FOBL Board of Governors wolvie109's Avatar
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    I'm so out of it but I'd like to say I understand where doc, rope and shaw are coming from because I do run a traditional staff. Really though it's this:

    Quote Originally Posted by cuervo72 View Post
    Bid on these guys.

  22. #22
    (Or Dark Cloud. Whichever works.) Young Drachma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy Grant View Post
    Before we ban one of the few working OOTP team strategy settings (not allowing pitch counts) I'd rather we tried one or both of these available options...
    1. Reduce the general strategic tendency "Pitcher Stamina" from 'normal' (or whatever we use) to... um 'weak' or whatever next lower setting is available.
    2. Reduce league totals "Relief Pitcher Stamina" setting from whatever we use (default is maybe .800?) to a lower number.

    Not that I even go here anymore, but...I was going to say there's the solution to your problem. Lower relief pitcher stamina to like .400 and you'll see a change and they'll act like relievers.
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  23. #23
    FOBL Owner/GM Ramzavail's Avatar
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    Just looked at the cash situation - it seems a lot of teams have cash - so the "bid him up" strategy should hold water at least for the next few years.
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  24. #24
    FOBL Owner/GM Doc P's Avatar
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    Bidding these players up isn't the point here.

    The point is gaming the system by not fielding 5 "starting" pitchers.

    I'm all for guys lining their bullpens with six or seven 13/9/9 guys. But you should still need to run five starters out there, and have them actually pitch like starters.

    I think the pitch count needs to be addressed.


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  25. #25
    FOBL Owner/GM Buddy Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuervo72 View Post
    Right now we are at "Low" for Pitcher Stamina ...
    Is there a "Very Low" setting? If so lets try it to see if sooper relievers still get their massive stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by cuervo72 View Post
    Right now we are at .... 1.000 for RP (and SP) stamina.

    RP stamina may not actually do anything though: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...justments.html
    Yeah, does not look like that second option works at all - quite surprising. Hopefully the slider for hit and run % actually has a game impact. That's a joke, I expect that the 100+ FAC strategy etc. sliders are mostly just for show:-D.

    Re: Strategies deemed egregious... I'm as outraged by egregious abuses as the next person, but there's no way I could reproduce my fave relievers (Mike Marshall) 1973 and 1974 stats in the modern FOBL without using a pitch count limit on some of my starters. Call me a traditionalist!

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