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Thread: Finishing 1st incentive

  1. #26
    FOBL Owner/GM Doc P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
    I like that, although I might go with:

    2nd place finishers get draft picks 17-20
    3rd place gets 21-24
    4th place gets 25-28
    1st place gets 29-32

    1st place is its own reward.
    I can't disagree more.
    1st place is NO reward.
    Ask the fans in Montego Bay. And Norwich. And Capital City.


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  2. #27
    FOBL Board of Governors Hollywood's Avatar
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    I guess I value division championships more than usual.

  3. #28
    FOFL Commissioner cuervo72's Avatar
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    I'd really like to not fuck with the SC or BC, personally.

    The draft thing...not bad, but I wonder if teams might actually tank out of 4th place.


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  4. #29
    FOBL Owner/GM Doc P's Avatar
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    Well, we're probably never going to get 22 guys to agree on 1 thing.
    So these discussions are pretty much pointless I guess.



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  5. #30
    FOBL Owner/GM frozenrope's Avatar
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    I like the draft pick idea; I agree with Doc that the incentive to finish first isn't that great. If cuervo gave us banners for winning the division, maybe.

    Ideas I would vote for:

    1. Removing the 4th place team from the playoffs.
    2. Switching draft position so the 1st place team gets a higher pick.
    3. Re-distribute playoff money so that all cash awards are for divisional standings and nothing for playoffs, with 4th place team receiving no bonus.
    4.


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  6. #31
    FOBL Owner/GM frozenrope's Avatar
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    Dola..

    I feel we gotta do something. It's very easy to sit on this and do nothing, but the current setup is not ideal, and that most owners feel the same way, even if the solution is not unanimous.


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  7. #32
    FOBL Board of Governors Hollywood's Avatar
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    I don't think removing cash incentive for finishing 4th is optimal, no?

  8. #33
    FOBL Owner/GM frozenrope's Avatar
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    But they would get the playoff slot; this was an alternative for those who don't want to give up the playoff spot.


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  9. #34
    Beloved Former Owner DukeRulesMAB's Avatar
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    I like the ideal of using playoff advancement cash to re-do the system a little. I think one thing we can all agree on is that playoff advancement is its own reward.

    I do agree with Shaw that division titles do mean something. That's in the eye of the beholder, of course.


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  10. #35
    FOBL Board of Governors Hollywood's Avatar
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    We're going to change things up. I feel confident that if we can get a concrete proposal with lots of people behind it, that everybody can come together.

  11. #36
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    I'm not opposed to changing the cash incentives for the seed that you earn. The hardest part with losing in the first round is that if I spend a lot on payroll and only get the first seed money in return, that doesn't do a dent in the money I lost trying to build a team (see NRW's Finances this year which includes $6.5 mil from Duke, Thanks man). If I need to add another player, I'm still cash strapped to do anything. I'm not talking about giving the first seed first round draft pick money, but maybe just widen the disparity between each seed. I don't need to break even on my revenue, just make it hurt less.

    I think the monies for advancing is fine. We don't want to give the guys advancing too much money. To me $4 mil is a lot in this financial system.

    Also we are already arranging the draft order by how far you advance in the playoffs so I'm not sure if changing it to where you placed matters much. The 4th round SS winner already gets the last pick in the draft and the #1 seeded loser in the first round (Me) gets the 20th pick. Do as we are now just make the losers seeded in the opposite order so the #1 seeded loser in the first round would get #17, but there really isn't that much of a difference between #17 and #20 to me.

  12. #37
    FOFL Commissioner cuervo72's Avatar
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    Yeah, the reverse in the round that you got to actually makes a lot of sense to me. I'm also fine with changing the per round money. Both of those are really easy to implement and administer.


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  13. #38
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    Changing cash for advancing still doesn't address the lack of importance of regular season finish.

    And if cash is still going to be our biggest incentive, then a good number of teams will still be incentiveless (is that a word?) due to being close to the cash cap. Thats why I like the idea of boosting BC, though from C's response earlier, that may be a big pain in the ass for some reason.


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  14. #39
    Beloved Former Owner DukeRulesMAB's Avatar
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    I disagree with the cash being incentiveless for high cash teams. You just have to convert cash to an asset (pick, prospect, whatever) at the trade deadline, and there's always something available to spend on.


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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeRulesMAB View Post
    I disagree with the cash being incentiveless for high cash teams. You just have to convert cash to an asset (pick, prospect, whatever) at the trade deadline, and there's always something available to spend on.
    If the cash payout is high enough, then you're right.


    Let's use my team as an example. Say we're rolling along in 1st place near the trade deadline. We're at $19 million.

    In the current system, we'll be getting, what, $800,000 to finish in first place? So we may end up around $20 million. I don't think any team in the league assumes a long playoff run given the crapshoot nature of the playoffs, so nobody should be counting on making that extra $1-$3 million.

    We're not going to go spend loads of cash at the deadline with the 1st or 2nd place finisher money being the only sure thing.

    So currently for us, the only incentive to finishing in 1st is to go from around $19 million to $20 million.

    And we're not the only ones in that boat. Ayr is in that situation almost every year. Arizona, Capital City, Utica just off the top of my head.


    BUT, if we were getting 3 or 4 million just for finishing first, and possibly 2 or 3 million for finishing 2nd, then I'd say you're right, we'd be more likely to try to turn that future cash into a current asset.


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  16. #41
    Beloved Former Owner DukeRulesMAB's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's what I was talking about; rope's plan of taking away playoff advancement cash and using the "bonus money" only for where you finish. It also helps make income more predictable.

    I have concerns about changing the weight of BC too much; I understand the idea behind it, but remember that most new owners take over bad teams, and and re-rigging of BC is going to slap around bad teams. And not just for one year, for multiple years. There are some interesting things we could do with the financial system, but for the sake of cuervo's sanity, I think we should try other, simpler things first.


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  17. #42
    Beloved Former Owner DukeRulesMAB's Avatar
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    Build off rope's initial idea of changing postseason cash to work for us.

    Right now, there is a $23M bonus pool. $800K for first, $600 for second, so on, for a total of $8M spent, plus $1M for each winner of a playoff series.

    I propose the relatively simple following:

    1st place - $3,250,000
    2nd place - $1,750,000
    3rd place - $750,000

    No bonus for 4th. No bonus for winning playoff series.

    If two or more teams tie for a spot after 162 games, the money for the spots involved is totaled, and evenly divided amongst those teams tied. (So if there is a 3 way tie for 3rd place, all 3 teams get $250K regardless of the result of the playoff for the 2 tournament berths).

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Justification:
    - This puts a significant financial premium on placing higher in the division.
    - There is no need for incentive to finish 4th; the incentive is to make the playoffs. There is no need for incentive to win playoff series; winning a series is its own reward
    - As playoffs are seen as somewhat of a crap shoot (or at least moreso than the regular season), this makes the bonus money a little less "luck" based
    - Just as importantly, it makes financial planning easier, as division finish should be more predictable by midseason than is playoff results.


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  18. #43
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    I'll have to think that one over. I'm not 100% sold on removing the bonus for winning the LCS/SS, but could definitely see it for the intradivisional series.


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  19. #44
    FOBL Board of Governors CubsFan915's Avatar
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    I'd be fine with removing the cash reward for the divisional series. I agree with Cuervo about not being sure about the LCS or SS, though.
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  20. #45
    FOBL Owner/GM frozenrope's Avatar
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    I like Duke's proposal. Taking out the bonus for 2 series but not the other 2 doesn't feel like enough. 4th place team that wins the SS will still get 2m.


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  21. #46
    FOBL Owner/GM Doc P's Avatar
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    I like Duke's proposal, but would amend it as follows:

    1st place: $4 million
    2nd place: $2 million
    3rd place: $1 million
    4th place: $500K

    Each place finisher gets twice as much money as the finisher behind him. Very symmetrical. Enough to make you want to finish higher.

    I'd also say the LCS winners should get $500K each, and the SS winner gets $500K each.

    Finally, because of our new amendment, we can allow deferment of cash payout. If a team is near the cap, let them defer their bonus until opening day of the following season if they choose. BUT it has to be all or nothing. You can't keep $1 million and defer $3 million. This will add another little layer of financial strategy.

    If I'm not mistaken, I thought Cuervo said the $23 million was an arbitrary number. We shouldn't let that limit us.


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  22. #47
    FOBL Board of Governors wolvie109's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc P View Post
    I like Duke's proposal, but would amend it as follows:

    1st place: $4 million
    2nd place: $2 million
    3rd place: $1 million
    4th place: $500K

    Each place finisher gets twice as much money as the finisher behind him. Very symmetrical. Enough to make you want to finish higher.

    I'd also say the LCS winners should get $500K each, and the SS winner gets $500K each.

    Finally, because of our new amendment, we can allow deferment of cash payout. If a team is near the cap, let them defer their bonus until opening day of the following season if they choose. BUT it has to be all or nothing. You can't keep $1 million and defer $3 million. This will add another little layer of financial strategy.

    If I'm not mistaken, I thought Cuervo said the $23 million was an arbitrary number. We shouldn't let that limit us.
    Cuervo did say that the $23 million was arbitrary but we should be careful not to infuse too much cash into the financial system. I'm not saying we need to stick to it, but I think we shouldn't go overboard. I'm okay with the numbers, in either Doc or Duke's proposals. I don't know about the deferral aspect. I think it's the owner's it is up to the owner to plan ahead for the extra cash. We shouldn't reward them by allowing them to defer money to the regular season for not planning accordingly. For me since the money is given during the off-season then off-season rules should apply. It also make things simpler.

  23. #48
    FOBL Owner/GM Doc P's Avatar
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    I don't see the sense in penalizing a team that doesn't predict its finish 2 months in advance and doesn't gamble with pre-possibly-earned money.
    These teams should be rewarded. That's the purpose of a bonus.

    Deferral is simple to implement, doesn't give anybody an unfair competitive advantage, and lets the teams that earned their bonus keep their bonus in a predictable manner.


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  24. #49
    FOBL Board of Governors CubsFan915's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolvie109 View Post
    Cuervo did say that the $23 million was arbitrary but we should be careful not to infuse too much cash into the financial system.
    The $23M was an arbitrary number, but it's already included as part of the cash in the financial system. The $23M is deducted from the pool before the payroll reimbursement and performance is calculated, so that the financial system remains zero-sum.
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  25. #50
    FOBL Board of Governors Morgado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CubsFan915 View Post
    The $23M was an arbitrary number, but it's already included as part of the cash in the financial system. The $23M is deducted from the pool before the payroll reimbursement and performance is calculated, so that the financial system remains zero-sum.
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