Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38

Thread: Discussion: The Cash Cap

  1. #1
    FOFL Commissioner cuervo72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Frederick, MD
    Posts
    22,951

    Default Discussion: The Cash Cap

    This discussion isn't about the removal of the cash cap, but these parts of it:

    2. A team may not make trades that would push its cash total above $20 million.

    3. No team can receive cash for any reason if receipt of the money would extend its cash balance to any level above $20 million.
    Given:

    1. Teams will not earn cash above a total of $20 million. The portion of a team's profits, both regular and postseason, that extend a team's cash total above $20 million shall be distributed evenly to other eligible teams.
    does it make sense to keep items 2 and 3? To paraphrase an example that was posed to me: Say a team is at $20M, and is slated to lose $5M. They should be safely under the $20M cap at the end of the year, but are somewhat restricted in their possible dealings in that they can't take back any money (say they have a player that they'd like to deal, but a straight player-for-player or player-for-picks deal isn't quite working out). Does this restriction really make sense? Could we rather have checkpoints for the $20M - like with the OC? After all, the cap is going to be reapplied at the end of the season anyway -- if their deal puts them over, they're still at risk of losing the money.

    Thoughts? Possible downsides to loosening this restriction in-season?


    Blue, blue, the sky is blue, the grass is green and your heart is true,
    You got more colors than I ever seen, pink, red, yellow and in between.

  2. #2
    FOBL Board of Governors CubsFan915's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    16,505

    Default

    Honestly, I thought that was how it worked.

    I understand this to mean that, immediately after the playoff money is distributed, anyone who's over $20M is immediately reduced to that. If I understand that correctly, I'd be fine with this being an any-point-during-the-offseason kind of thing and end-of-season thing.
    Richmond Confederates

    Gindin League Wild Card 2008, 2018, 2028
    Prairie Division Champion 2009
    Gindin League Champion 2028
    Vaughan League Division Semi-Finalist 2036, 2037, 2038, 2048, 2052, 2053, 2054, 2055, 2056
    Skates Division Regular Season Champion 2057
    Skates Division Playoff Champion 2057
    Gindin League Division Semi-Finalist 2058

  3. #3
    FOFL Commissioner cuervo72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Frederick, MD
    Posts
    22,951

    Default

    Right, if anyone goes over $20M, that overage is distributed. But as the rule works now, if you go into the season at $20M, unless you get rid of cash somewhere else you can't accept cash in a trade. You can as soon as the season ends (assuming you lost cash), but not before.


    Blue, blue, the sky is blue, the grass is green and your heart is true,
    You got more colors than I ever seen, pink, red, yellow and in between.

  4. #4
    FOBL Owner/GM Doc P's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    2,290

    Default

    Yeah let's change it. Now for the 22 votes...

  5. #5
    (Or Dark Cloud. Whichever works.) Young Drachma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Bloomington, IN
    Posts
    2,553

    Default

    ALL THESE DAMN RULES.
    FOBL: Helsinki Clowns (2063-)
    previously: Fresno Tacos (2062), Salt Lake City Elders (2048-58), Marlboro Townies (2038-43), Bantam Originals (2028-35)
    NCFA: Minnesota A&M Redhorse
    USA: Front Range United
    IFA: Toverit Helsinki

  6. #6
    FOFL Commissioner cuervo72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Frederick, MD
    Posts
    22,951

    Default

    How about this. There is a cash cap that is instituted in the offseason. Basically, you are checked before the season, and your cash has to be $20M or below. During the season, teams MAY add cash - however, if they don't fall below $20M by the time of the end-of-year distributions (either by negative profit or trade), the cash is still distributed like typical overage.

    Thoughts?


    Blue, blue, the sky is blue, the grass is green and your heart is true,
    You got more colors than I ever seen, pink, red, yellow and in between.

  7. #7
    FOBL Owner/GM frozenrope's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Aurora, Illinois
    Posts
    8,869

    Default

    I think that's good, Cuerv.


    'Tragedy is when I stub my toe. Comedy is when you fall down a manhole and die." - Mel Brooks

    "Prophet Harold Camping who predicted the end of the world has died. That's kinda sad but its not the end of the world" -
    Eric Idle

  8. #8
    Beloved Former Owner DukeRulesMAB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Frankfort, KY
    Posts
    9,755

    Default

    Honestly, I don't know that we have a great need for a cash cap at all given the soft cap of (salary = greater of cash or expenses). But whatever's good for me.


    Owner/General Manger (no longer former this either!) - Kentucky Juggernaut

    Front Office Baseball League Champions: 2011, 2056
    Vaughan League Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012
    Gindin League Champions: 2056, 2057
    Calzone Division Champions: 2011, 2012, 2013
    DEFCON Division Champions: 2058, 2059, 2060
    Vaughan League Wild Card: 2006, 2009



    Owner/General Manager (no longer former!) - Austin Amish

    Front Office Football League Champions: 2054
    AC Champions: 2054
    AC South Champions: 2005, 2006
    AC West Champions: 2050, 2051, 2052, 2053, 2054, 2055
    AC Wild Card: 2007, 2008, 2043, 2045

    Inaugural FOFL Commissioner

  9. #9
    FOBL Owner/GM Doc P's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    2,290

    Default

    I strongly agree with this proposal Cuervo.


    Solecismic Series Champions - 2044, 2047, 2048, 2050, 2053, 2058, 2059
    Vaughan League Champions - 2044,2047,2048,2050,2051,2052,2053,2054,2058,2059
    Ice Cream Sandwich Division Champions - 2043,2044,2045,2046,2047,2049,2050,2051,2052,2054, 2055,2056,2058,2059,2060,2061
    Vaughan League Manager of the Year - 2043, 2044, 2048, 2050

  10. #10
    FOBL Owner/GM Buddy Grant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    9,839

    Default

    I like your proposal cuervo, it will allow more GM options & would likely encourage some more trading.
    Capital City Metropolitans 50 Fucking Years Old!!!

  11. #11
    (Or Dark Cloud. Whichever works.) Young Drachma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Bloomington, IN
    Posts
    2,553

    Default

    I like it.
    FOBL: Helsinki Clowns (2063-)
    previously: Fresno Tacos (2062), Salt Lake City Elders (2048-58), Marlboro Townies (2038-43), Bantam Originals (2028-35)
    NCFA: Minnesota A&M Redhorse
    USA: Front Range United
    IFA: Toverit Helsinki

  12. #12
    FOFL Commissioner cuervo72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Frederick, MD
    Posts
    22,951

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DukeRulesMAB View Post
    Honestly, I don't know that we have a great need for a cash cap at all given the soft cap of (salary = greater of cash or expenses). But whatever's good for me.
    Well, you also weren't here when owners were stockpiling massive amounts of cash (30M+? How high did GRN and TRE get??). That sucked money out of the pool and helped drive down FA prices (other owners had less to spend and less margin for error). It wasn't the only reason - as we've discussed, talent sucked - but it didn't help.

    I'll concede that in theory cash shouldn't accumulate as much with the salary floor. But I figure the cash cap can't hurt. Well, unless it can be proven that it does, but nobody has done that yet.


    Blue, blue, the sky is blue, the grass is green and your heart is true,
    You got more colors than I ever seen, pink, red, yellow and in between.

  13. #13
    Beloved Former Owner DukeRulesMAB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Frankfort, KY
    Posts
    9,755

    Default

    Well, yeah, I wasn't around when it got that bad, but I'm also not sure how you'd manage to accumulate 30M in cash without losing a pile each year. I suppose if the best team in the league was sitting on 30M and kept expenses below that it would be profitable


    Owner/General Manger (no longer former this either!) - Kentucky Juggernaut

    Front Office Baseball League Champions: 2011, 2056
    Vaughan League Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012
    Gindin League Champions: 2056, 2057
    Calzone Division Champions: 2011, 2012, 2013
    DEFCON Division Champions: 2058, 2059, 2060
    Vaughan League Wild Card: 2006, 2009



    Owner/General Manager (no longer former!) - Austin Amish

    Front Office Football League Champions: 2054
    AC Champions: 2054
    AC South Champions: 2005, 2006
    AC West Champions: 2050, 2051, 2052, 2053, 2054, 2055
    AC Wild Card: 2007, 2008, 2043, 2045

    Inaugural FOFL Commissioner

  14. #14
    FOBL Owner/GM clintl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    5,948

    Default

    It was both possible and not uncommon. Basically, all you had to do was put together a low salaried team that wasn't awful, and you could make a lot of money. And it wasn't that hard to find flawed but useful players in FA cheaply to field that kind of team.
    FOBL Santa Cruz Sea Lions
    2008 Solecismic Series Champions
    2008, 2030 Gindin League Champions
    2008, 2012, 2016 Dola Division Champions
    2041 DEFCON Division Champions
    2009, 2019, 2029, 2030 Gindin League Wild Card

    FOFL Davis Toads
    2033, 2034 NC Conference Champions
    2012, 2019, 2023, 2031, 2033, 2034 NC West Champions
    2004, 2005, 2006, 2035, 2038 NC Wild Card

  15. #15
    Beloved Former Owner MrIllini's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    In my house
    Posts
    8,028

    Default

    Does this mean that cash trades after the season would count before cash cap eval?

    I learned this year that is not currently the case.
    Owner/GM, Utica Wombats
    Solecismic Series Champs - 2015
    Vaughan League Champs - 2015, 2024, 2035, 2045, 2046
    Ice Cream Sandwich Division Champs - 2036, 2046, 2048

    Nor'Easter Division Champs - 2004-2007, 2010, 2013-2016, 2023, 2025, 2027, 2034
    Vaughan League Wild Card - 2024, 2033, 2035, 2037, 2044, 2045

    Owner/GM, Happy Valley Hippies
    AC East Division Champs - 2019, 2027, 2039
    AC Wild Card - 2020, 2031

  16. #16
    FOFL Commissioner cuervo72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Frederick, MD
    Posts
    22,951

    Default

    No, they still wouldn't (and yeah, sorry about that - really if you have to ditch cash, you need to do it before the trade deadline, not after the season*). Basically what it does is allow teams that are at the 20M cap to sell picks or players or receive cash in deals where it may be a balancer, even if it temporarily pushes them above 20M.


    * now, if we wanted to start allowing trades that don't involve players after the trade deadline...that's a separate and perhaps worthy discussion


    Blue, blue, the sky is blue, the grass is green and your heart is true,
    You got more colors than I ever seen, pink, red, yellow and in between.

  17. #17
    FOBL Board of Governors Morgado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    6,888

    Default

    The main reason we have the rule as written (and why I would want it to stay the same) is because most people do not actually read the rules - many times we have owners who think they know what the rule is and they do things with the wrong assumptions.

    "You can't do anything that would put you above 20m cash" is a very simple bright line rule that is impossible to get wrong. Not at certain times, not due to certain reasons, not certain circumstances - never. Period. Yes, it limits the very innovative and very active owners from doing creative things manipulating their cash and payroll situations around the checkpoints, but that's something i'm okay with to remove confusion from the larger number of owners who aren't as detail focused in trying to game the system.

    Davenport Falcons - 2043 FOBL Solecismic Series Winners

    (05 OCT 2011) 09:56:52 am [kurtism]: morg is the honey badger of economic analysts
    Jenny's Constant = [(7^((e/1)-(1/e)) - 9)]*(pi)^2
    I ♣ baby seals.
    *shurg* \_(ツ)_/

  18. #18
    FOBL Board of Governors CubsFan915's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    16,505

    Default

    I agree with the distinguished Morgadiddle. The easier we make the rules to understand, the less likely it is that we have someone end up breaking them, accidentally or not.
    Richmond Confederates

    Gindin League Wild Card 2008, 2018, 2028
    Prairie Division Champion 2009
    Gindin League Champion 2028
    Vaughan League Division Semi-Finalist 2036, 2037, 2038, 2048, 2052, 2053, 2054, 2055, 2056
    Skates Division Regular Season Champion 2057
    Skates Division Playoff Champion 2057
    Gindin League Division Semi-Finalist 2058

  19. #19
    FOBL Owner/GM Doc P's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    2,290

    Default

    I have to disagree with the DAV and RIC owners. We're not a bunch of fucking morons on here. Sure, sometimes rules aren't obvious. But once guys know the rules, they often either abide by them or hide behind the "ooops, sorry, didn't know" excuse.

    If you want to be technical about it, at any point during the season, your actual cash amount would not be the same as on opening day. It's not like you wait to pay the players' salaries the day after the season ends. They're getting checks throughout the season. You're also generating revenue throughout the season.

    It's a very simple concept. There's a $20 million cash cap on opening day. Better be back down to $20 million the day after the season ends, or it gets zapped away, just like the current setup.

    It's very hard for me to believe that anybody would actually have a strong argument against this.


    Solecismic Series Champions - 2044, 2047, 2048, 2050, 2053, 2058, 2059
    Vaughan League Champions - 2044,2047,2048,2050,2051,2052,2053,2054,2058,2059
    Ice Cream Sandwich Division Champions - 2043,2044,2045,2046,2047,2049,2050,2051,2052,2054, 2055,2056,2058,2059,2060,2061
    Vaughan League Manager of the Year - 2043, 2044, 2048, 2050

  20. #20
    FOBL Board of Governors Morgado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    6,888

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc P View Post
    If you want to be technical about it, at any point during the season, your actual cash amount would not be the same as on opening day. It's not like you wait to pay the players' salaries the day after the season ends.
    Actually, that is exactly how we resolve finances each season.

    Davenport Falcons - 2043 FOBL Solecismic Series Winners

    (05 OCT 2011) 09:56:52 am [kurtism]: morg is the honey badger of economic analysts
    Jenny's Constant = [(7^((e/1)-(1/e)) - 9)]*(pi)^2
    I ♣ baby seals.
    *shurg* \_(ツ)_/

  21. #21
    Beloved Former Owner RonCo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Oro Valley, AZ
    Posts
    7,424

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgado View Post
    Actually, that is exactly how we resolve finances each season.
    That's something a lot of people never seemed to get. All revenue moves into and away from teams on the last day of the season. At least that's how it used to work.
    LOS ALAMOS NUKES
    VL Pennant Winners - Solecismic Series Champions: 2027, 2029
    Darn Tootin' Division Champions: 2020, 2027, 2028, 2029
    VL Wild Card: 2021, 2025, 2026, 2030, 2031 (VPI!)


  22. #22
    FOBL Owner/GM Buddy Grant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    9,839

    Default

    Hey Ron.
    Quote Originally Posted by RonCo View Post
    That's something a lot of people never seemed to get. All revenue moves into and away from teams on the last day of the season. At least that's how it used to work.

  23. #23
    Beloved Former Owner DukeRulesMAB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Frankfort, KY
    Posts
    9,755

    Default

    I voted no, not because I'm a huge fan of the cash cap (I'd like to see the soft cap we have now in action by itself, personally), but because, like Morg, I think the current rule is actually simpler than the proposed rule. And in general, simpler is better.


    Owner/General Manger (no longer former this either!) - Kentucky Juggernaut

    Front Office Baseball League Champions: 2011, 2056
    Vaughan League Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012
    Gindin League Champions: 2056, 2057
    Calzone Division Champions: 2011, 2012, 2013
    DEFCON Division Champions: 2058, 2059, 2060
    Vaughan League Wild Card: 2006, 2009



    Owner/General Manager (no longer former!) - Austin Amish

    Front Office Football League Champions: 2054
    AC Champions: 2054
    AC South Champions: 2005, 2006
    AC West Champions: 2050, 2051, 2052, 2053, 2054, 2055
    AC Wild Card: 2007, 2008, 2043, 2045

    Inaugural FOFL Commissioner

  24. #24
    FOBL Owner/GM Doc P's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    2,290

    Default

    The current rule forces the commish or BOG to monitor all transaction activity during the season to make sure nobody goes over the cap.

    The proposed rule simplifies the matter by not requiring any checks during the season.

    The proposed rule would also allow a team that's near the cash cap but scheduled to lose money during the season (like AYR) to make a deal that would bring them a shitload of cash to help offset the loss they will sustain. This increases free trade.

    The current system impedes transactions, which are already impeded enough.


    FURTHERMORE, if we ever consider instituting an incentive program that would allow cash bonuses to be deferred to the following season, this initial step is 100% necessary.


    Solecismic Series Champions - 2044, 2047, 2048, 2050, 2053, 2058, 2059
    Vaughan League Champions - 2044,2047,2048,2050,2051,2052,2053,2054,2058,2059
    Ice Cream Sandwich Division Champions - 2043,2044,2045,2046,2047,2049,2050,2051,2052,2054, 2055,2056,2058,2059,2060,2061
    Vaughan League Manager of the Year - 2043, 2044, 2048, 2050

  25. #25
    FOBL Board of Governors Morgado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    6,888

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DukeRulesMAB View Post
    I voted no, not because I'm a huge fan of the cash cap (I'd like to see the soft cap we have now in action by itself, personally), but because, like Morg, I think the current rule is actually simpler than the proposed rule. And in general, simpler is better.
    Honestly, i'm not even sure how the proposed rule could be enforced as written.

    *shurg*

    Davenport Falcons - 2043 FOBL Solecismic Series Winners

    (05 OCT 2011) 09:56:52 am [kurtism]: morg is the honey badger of economic analysts
    Jenny's Constant = [(7^((e/1)-(1/e)) - 9)]*(pi)^2
    I ♣ baby seals.
    *shurg* \_(ツ)_/

Similar Threads

  1. Discussion: Cash Cap
    By TRO in forum Suggested Amendments
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 01-26-2012, 08:37 PM
  2. Cash Cap
    By PineTar in forum Suggested Amendments
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 09-01-2009, 09:30 PM
  3. DUR needs cash
    By Malificent in forum FOBL Trade Block
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-29-2007, 08:32 PM
  4. RIC needs cash
    By CubsFan915 in forum FOBL Trade Block
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 03-26-2006, 11:54 PM
  5. Better than cash!
    By Fritz in forum FOBL General Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-05-2002, 10:15 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •