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Thread: OFFICIAL DISCUSSION THREAD: Legacy Discount

  1. #26
    Owner and GM, Washington Piledrivers and Virginia Woodchucks Subby's Avatar
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    I would like a proposal that takes care of the Jihad Ammans and Iron Leungs of the world without the potential for the loophole of a massive discount for a loyal guy that has been with a team for 10 years. That is why I recommended increasing the hometown discount to 10%. That gives a minimal loyalty guy like Jihad or Leung a 15% discount to the market. That seems pretty good to me.

    And yes, I think it is reasonable to expect the amount of discount a player will give his team will be capped at some point. That is why I advocate capping at 25%. I think it is unreasonable and anti-competitive to get a higher discount than that on a good player.
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  2. #27
    Beloved Former Owner DukeRulesMAB's Avatar
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    1) I would vote no to Subby's amendment. I would not be alone. I am willing to accept changes to bonuses that affect them (relatively) the same across the board. I am most certainly not willing to accept any changes which specifically downgrades one (loyal) in relation to the others. That is a completely ridiculous pulling out of the rug on those people who have invested in loyal players.

    2) With all due respect to Subby and TRO, I don't think 2 or 3 (maybe 4, I forget) dissenting voices are reason to re-write an amendment, when we have many, many more voices in support of the amendment as it stands.


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  3. #28
    Owner and GM, Washington Piledrivers and Virginia Woodchucks Subby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeRulesMAB
    With all due respect to Subby and TRO, I don't think 2 or 3 (maybe 4, I forget) dissenting voices are reason to re-write an amendment, when we have many, many more voices in support of the amendment as it stands.
    Or maybe this went to "official discussion" way too fast.

    I am not proposing new amendments. I am still in the brainstorming stage. Unfortunately, someone (I don't know who) decided we were done with that and has given us concrete language to discuss.

    Anyway, what's done is done. Bring on the vote so I can cash in.
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  4. #29
    Beloved Former Owner Daimyo's Avatar
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    In Duke's defense, the original thread had been up for 11 days before he posted this official duscission thread... 11 days is an eternity in FOBL rules discussion time.

  5. #30
    Owner and GM, Washington Piledrivers and Virginia Woodchucks Subby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daimyo
    In Duke's defense, the original thread had been up for 11 days before he posted this official duscission thread... 11 days is an eternity in FOBL rules discussion time.
    Not really. Stuff gets discussed and tabled for months around here and then rehashed and then tabled, and then voted on in the off-season. This got fast-tracked because of the PP trade and Buddy's subsequent steam-rising-from-head post and al's clever little analogy...

    Still not sure how this is all of a sudden is a MUCH NEEDED FIX when we have RFA for a total of two seasons, one of which saw a team unnecesarily nuke their club...
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  6. #31
    FOBL Owner/GM Buddy Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subby
    This got fast-tracked because of the PP trade and Buddy's subsequent steam-rising-from-head post
    Thank you, thank you, but I could not have done it without the little people. People like you Subbsy . Seriously though, a temper tantrum post from me would not have any league wide impact on FOBL rule changes, in fact, the opposite effect is usually the result (see FOBL Bucks posts). The Legacy Discount rule idea's have become popular because:
    - Most GM's would prefer less movement of the FOBL's biggest stars.
    - Tastes Great, Less Filling.
    - Skydog indicated it would be a good thing to add to OOTP.
    - Without it the FOBL risks an increased terrorist threat.
    - Perhaps we erred in setting the hometown discount to only 5%.
    - If Subby doesn't like the rule, the odds are good it will lead to more parity.
    - Most GM's like having their hand held.
    - "Legacy Discount" is a catchy name.
    - Cooley can't understand why people don't just back off about the 400/OOTP split, or the fact that his troll post erupted into a shit storm.
    - Most GM's are concerned about losing a favorite player in RFA.
    - Saying yes to Legacy Discount is like a glass of feeling better.
    - Scientists have discovered that even monkeys like the Legacy Discount rule. You're not stupider than a monkey are you?
    - It is said to have magical healing powers.
    - Most GM's want to bring the fun back into fundamentalism.
    - More calculations for the FOBL's resident stat hounds to calculate.
    - No more tangles!
    - Shaw dreams of resigning his star 2B for a cash rebate.
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  7. #32
    FOBL Board of Governors Hollywood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy Grant
    Shaw dreams of resigning his star 2B for a cash rebate.
    That was a dream?

  8. #33
    Owner and GM, Washington Piledrivers and Virginia Woodchucks Subby's Avatar
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    I find myself nodding in agreement to all of Buddy's points.
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  9. #34
    Beloved Former Owner tauter's Avatar
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    I love it when other GM's speak for the majority without really knowing what the truth is...


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  10. #35
    Owner and GM, Washington Piledrivers and Virginia Woodchucks Subby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subby
    I find myself nodding in agreement to all of Buddy's points.
    Sorry - I wasn't paying attention to what I was typing. Please replace "...nodding in agreement to all of Buddy's points," with "...bobbing my head in unison with Buddy's gyrating pelvis."
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  11. #36
    Beloved Former Owner TRO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tauter
    I love it when other GM's speak for the majority without really knowing what the truth is...
    I think I speak for everybody when I say we all feel this way...

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  12. #37
    FOBL Commissioner Simms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subby
    Unfortunately, someone (I don't know who) decided we were done with that and has given us concrete language to discuss.
    That would be me.

    As Daimyo said, the original thread had been up for well more than a week. Discussion had died down, and a couple of voices aside, it appeared to me to have sufficient support to warrant a vote in the not-too-distant future.

    Personally, I have no stake in this discussion as I'm not sure how I feel about it yet other than to say I don't really care one way or another.

    Maybe this went up too fast, I don't know. I call 'em as I see 'em though, and I apologize if the decision rankled anybody. On the other hand, this is still *just* a discussion. It has not gone to vote yet, and if the perceived support wanes, then it may or may not actually get to that point. In the meantime, there is nothing stopping anybody from starting a "competing" discussion thread for a different proposal.
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  13. #38
    Beloved Former Owner tauter's Avatar
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    I call for an impeachment!



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  14. #39
    Owner and GM, Washington Piledrivers and Virginia Woodchucks Subby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simms
    That would be me. As Daimyo said, the original thread had been up for well more than a week. Discussion had died down, and a couple of voices aside, it appeared to me to have sufficient support to warrant a vote in the not-too-distant future.
    That works for me. I guess we'll be seeing official discussion threads and votes on Al's anti-tanking idea today. Yes?
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  15. #40
    Beloved Former Owner alhill's Avatar
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    My anti-tanking idea was missing the whole sufficient support thing.

    It never even got to a final form. The language isn't done.


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  16. #41
    FOBL Commissioner Simms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subby
    That works for me. I guess we'll be seeing official discussion threads and votes on Al's anti-tanking idea today. Yes?
    No.

    Other than 'rope's post near the end (here), show me one place where anybody in that thread agreed with *anything* somebody else said. I see some vague support there for the general concept, but little else.

    I think you're placing far too much importance on the "OFFICIAL" tag...it's a narrowing of the discussion, not a promise of a vote within 48 hours.
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  17. #42
    Owner and GM, Washington Piledrivers and Virginia Woodchucks Subby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simms
    I think you're placing far too much importance on the "OFFICIAL" tag...it's a narrowing of the discussion, not a promise of a vote within 48 hours.
    At the very beginning, the thread says:

    "The following amendment will go up for vote next Monday (August 4)."

    This is going to a vote less than 3 weeks after it was originally proposed. I don't ever recall something being fast-tracked like this. This is a huge proposal. What's the rush? Are we fixing some fundamental flaw in the structure of the game that is keeping us from simming?

    No. This is a knee-jerk reaction to a perceived problem that just happened to get a lot of key publicity.

    I love the idea of a legacy/hometown discount, but this amendment is half-baked at best and needs more work.
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  18. #43
    FOBL Owner/GM frozenrope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simms
    No.
    Other than 'rope's post near the end (here), show me one place where anybody in that thread agreed with *anything* somebody else said.
    Man, did I say that? You think that being married to a government worker would make me more inclined to slow down a little.


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  19. #44
    Beloved Former Owner Daimyo's Avatar
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    Looking over the original discussion thread I saw two people very vocally opposed to the idea, one additional person who agreed with those two and then one person who seemed to have some doubt/questions but didn't follow up. On the other hand there seemed to be several people chiming in to say they liked the idea. The two vocal opponents both made pleas and alternate proprosals that didn't seem to sway the majority (that bothered to post).

    My impression is that the reason it is on the "fast track" is that by far the majority (of those who bothered to post) like it a lot? I would be very interested to see what the thus far silent majority thing about the idea, though. Hopefully moving it to "official discussion stage" will bring out more people to respond?

  20. #45
    FOBL Commissioner Simms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subby
    At the very beginning, the thread says:

    "The following amendment will go up for vote next Monday (August 4)."
    Okay, I missed that part....I'll give you that.

    Now...

    In the original thread, there was a proposal, some discussion, and then a revised proposal with a call for more discussion. 18 people responded in that thread.

    In this "official" thread, we've had 13 people respond. All 13 also responded in the original thread, so there were 5 additional posters. In all, exactly half the league has taken the time to publicly air their feelings on this issue..

    Of those 18, nine are on record as being (as best I can determine) supportive (Al, Duke, Clint, Shaw, Cubsfan, Crow, Shucker, Buddy, and pbot.

    4 more are "probably"s (they've made some comments, and seem likely to support the measure but haven't necessarily come out and said so directly) -- Mali, Me, TDAO, and Daimyo.

    There are 4 flat-out "NO"s -- Subby, TRO, Ryan (who's only comment was an "I'm with stupid" smiley) and 'rope.

    One person (tauter) has posted once in the two threads but his post didn't deal directly with the amendment on the table.

    Seeing as you're never going to get every owner's feelings on an issue in a single thread until a vote, this as good a representative sample as we're ever going to see.

    The thread was up for two weeks. There has been ample time for discussion. There is sufficient support. Your opposition, Subby, is noted, and your vote as such will be counted. If it turns out the support is NOT there, then it will fail. But one person calling it "half-baked" is not reason enough to scrap the whole thing. Three weeks to a vote is hardly fast-tracking...personally, I think *all* proposals should go through that fast. And you still have plenty of time to lobby for additional support.

    I still don't see what the problem is here.

    EDIT: to add TDAO to the "Probably" list. While I'm on the subject, apologies to anyone I've offended by mistakenly inferring your feelings incorrectly. I used my best judgement, but it's an inexactl science. If I've got you slotted wrong, feel free to bash me about the head and set me straight.
    Last edited by Simms; 07-30-2003 at 11:05 AM.
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  21. #46
    Beloved Former Owner tauter's Avatar
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    When can I vote "NO"? Is that clear enough boss?


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  22. #47
    FOBL Commissioner Simms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tauter
    When can I vote "NO"? Is that clear enough boss?
    Make that 5 "NO"s.
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  23. #48
    Beloved Former Owner tauter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeRulesMAB
    For every consecutive season beyond 5 that a player has spent on his current team while playing under a paid (non-MLC) contract and without playing for any other team, that team shall receive an additional, optional 2% discount on that player when matching him.
    To me this sounds like the player can never have played for another team, ever. Shouldn't the "without playing for any other team" be clarified to "any other team during that time period"?


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  24. #49
    Owner and GM, Washington Piledrivers and Virginia Woodchucks Subby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simms
    Three weeks to a vote is hardly fast-tracking...
    Then please show me another measure we have ever brought out of initial discussion to official discussion to vote in three weeks.

    We are about to vote on a brand new idea hatched less than two weeks ago that is going to make a huge change to the fundamental operations of the league.

    Yes, I think we are going to vote too soon.
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  25. #50
    Beloved Former Owner Malificent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subby
    that is going to make a huge change to the fundamental operations of the league.
    A huge change? This is not going to affect enough players to be labeled as a huge change and this comes from someone who is firmly undecided on the issue. RFA itself was a huge change. A legacy discount is not a "huge change to the fundamental operations of the league".
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